Steven: See here in lies your fallacy. I have nothing to prove to you. And No reason to try. I have No burden of proof. I have faith. Simple. The Bible says the cross is foolishness to the non believing. As for the fact you are using other religions to argue there is No God is silly. It really boils down to Pascal's Wager.
Merphie:Its not a fallacy. I care about what is true. If you can't provide evidence for why something is true then you shouldn't believe it either.
The bible says a lot of things but it is pointless to argue about the meaning of a cherry picked verse until you can prove the bible is what you claim.
"you have faith" is another way to say you believe because you want to believe. that has no value.
Maybe a better example would be a Mormon knocks on your door and tells you about the truth. Will you just convert and follow Joseph smith? I doubt it. Why not? he has the same reasons to believe that you do. Is his faith somehow less?
Pascal's wager is worthless. there are so many gods that the probability of picking the right one is higher than the lottery. Catholics don't believe the same thing as protestants. so picking the right sect is just as important as the right god. In the end you are saying that god can't tell if you believe or just buying hell insurance. which means he is gullible and can't be all powerful or all knowing.
You misunderstood what I said. I asked how do you know the things you attribute to god are the Christian god?
How do you know god didn't tell Andrea Yates to kill her kids?
Wednesday, August 8, 2012
Steven: I was an Atheist!
Steven:
Yes I am absolutely backing out of traveling 1 1/2 hours for a pointless conversation. I have my ads posted in Lawton also. I was wrong in assuming you lived locally. I don't get many responses from okc. So yes. You can tell everyone you win. Lol you defeated the stupid Christian in a battle of wits! If I thought your mind was open at all to change I would be more excited. But I myself was an atheist who despised the Bible so I know what it feels like. I appreciate your thoughts also because God still hears them. If you ever travel south get a hold of me.
Merphie: You asked me when and where; I answered. It is that simple. I am willing to travel but it may take some time to work out the details. We could meet half way but you just shut the door.
Please stop putting words in my mouth. I never said anyone was stupid nor is this a battle of wits. I said I care about what is true. this means you are making the claim and you have burden of proof.
Using a fallacy to justify something makes it false. I could think of a million examples using your fallacies that you would deny right off hand.
For example, I know a Muslim friend who had a personal experience where Allah showed his mercy helping him get off drugs. does that mean your god is wrong and Allah is correct? if not, then does that mean you just have a closed mind even though Allah loves you anyway? How do you know it was the Christian god? perhaps you experienced Buddha? how can you tell the difference? now you have to prove it was the Christian god in addition to proving there are any gods.
I know people who have stopped using drugs without supernatural beliefs. I also know the first step in AA is to admit you are weak and can't stop on your own. they aren't picky about what helps you. this suggest there is a placebo affect at work.
regardless I admire that you got off drugs and violence. in my opinion, you deserve all the credit for turning your life around. there isn't a god which means you are stronger than you realize. you should be saying "I changed my life by getting off drugs. I helped creating my family".
Your assumptions are wrong. I don't despise the bible. you don't know anything about me. so it's not possible for you to know what its like. you will learn far more by asking a question than making an assumption.
I don't know what kind of "atheist" you were but its irrelevant. atheism describes someone's position on one topic. is there a god? if you answer no then you are an atheist. that's it. You can't tell anything else about a person that is an atheist.
Yes I am absolutely backing out of traveling 1 1/2 hours for a pointless conversation. I have my ads posted in Lawton also. I was wrong in assuming you lived locally. I don't get many responses from okc. So yes. You can tell everyone you win. Lol you defeated the stupid Christian in a battle of wits! If I thought your mind was open at all to change I would be more excited. But I myself was an atheist who despised the Bible so I know what it feels like. I appreciate your thoughts also because God still hears them. If you ever travel south get a hold of me.
Merphie: You asked me when and where; I answered. It is that simple. I am willing to travel but it may take some time to work out the details. We could meet half way but you just shut the door.
Please stop putting words in my mouth. I never said anyone was stupid nor is this a battle of wits. I said I care about what is true. this means you are making the claim and you have burden of proof.
Using a fallacy to justify something makes it false. I could think of a million examples using your fallacies that you would deny right off hand.
For example, I know a Muslim friend who had a personal experience where Allah showed his mercy helping him get off drugs. does that mean your god is wrong and Allah is correct? if not, then does that mean you just have a closed mind even though Allah loves you anyway? How do you know it was the Christian god? perhaps you experienced Buddha? how can you tell the difference? now you have to prove it was the Christian god in addition to proving there are any gods.
I know people who have stopped using drugs without supernatural beliefs. I also know the first step in AA is to admit you are weak and can't stop on your own. they aren't picky about what helps you. this suggest there is a placebo affect at work.
regardless I admire that you got off drugs and violence. in my opinion, you deserve all the credit for turning your life around. there isn't a god which means you are stronger than you realize. you should be saying "I changed my life by getting off drugs. I helped creating my family".
Your assumptions are wrong. I don't despise the bible. you don't know anything about me. so it's not possible for you to know what its like. you will learn far more by asking a question than making an assumption.
I don't know what kind of "atheist" you were but its irrelevant. atheism describes someone's position on one topic. is there a god? if you answer no then you are an atheist. that's it. You can't tell anything else about a person that is an atheist.
Steven and I
I had this short discussion with Steven about Christianity. He runs a page on Facebook about the paranormal. (O.C.R.A.P) I admit that I didn't start the conversation in a very constructive manner. This guy believes in just about everything so I figured it would be impossible to have a real conversation. How do you talk to someone who knows everything? I was surprised by his calm response. (It's how I would probably respond.) I had to reach his inner licensed preacher.
He eventually went to "lets meet in person". This is usually code for throwing a bunch of stuff out at once and appealing to emotion. I guess it became obvious to Steven I wasn't going to use the same arguments "he's heard before".
As with most conversations with Theist it seems like most of the time is spent with them putting words in the Atheist mouth. Below is a copy and paste from the original email. (Headers and address have been removed) I apologize for the grammer of the text since most of it was typed on my phone.
Merphie: The bible is just as fictional as the paranormal.
Steven: Thanks.
Merphie: Just thought you should know. especially since paranormal and the bible conflict.
Steven: Actually if you studied the Bible you would realize they don't. But your opinion is entitled to you.
Merphie: Nice guess, I have studied. Its more than opinion because I actually care what is true.
Steven: Thank you sir. All I can say is you're allowed to believe what you want. Jesus still loves you no matter how you feel about him. And I understand you will say he is fiction too. I've debated successfully and unsuccessfully with atheiests. All I can say is I am following what I believe.
Merphie: I understand about belief but that isn't what I said. you dont seem to care what is true and what is not.
Steven: You see. That's where our conversation ends. You said the Bible is fiction. I KNOW it to be true. I don't have time or energy to waste arguing with you on an email. If you care what is true. Meet me in person and I will debate you all you want. Other than that I will not respond to your banter and pandering again.
Merphie: Call it what you want because no amount of belief will make it true. you haven't even said which flavor you believe. Catholics, Baptists, Methodist, or calvonist? there's so many to choose from and none of them are compatible. it has nothing to do with what you think you know because every theist uses that statement to prove their belief.
A debate or argument is really no different in person or via email. you can't manipulate emotions to prove your point which is the only reason you would require it to be in person. if you can't prove your belief over email then you can't do it in person. the media doesn't matter because the argument rest on if it's true or false. Give it a simple try. tell me what you believe and your best reason for believing.
I am willing to meet in person at a public location on neutral ground (like a park) and I be allowed to record the argument so I can post it on my blog.
Steven: OK. Great I live in marlow. When would you like to meet and where. And of course I will also be recording the debate as well as bringing witnesses in case you plan violence against Christians. And my denomination is of no importance to the Bible being true. .im not even a member of a church at the moment. And I am a licenced minister. Truth is truth. Period. Your beliefs are set. No amount of discussion is going to change your mind. And honestly that is God's job not mine. All I can do is present literary, archaeological, and historical evidence from outside the Bible to prove the Bible is true. All you will do is point in discrepancies in the text that seem to make it look like the bible contradicts itself. That or point out the foolishness of faith in a book. These are all arguments I have heard before. How about the emotional aspect you spoke of. Oh yes my testimony is emotional. I was addicted to Meth as a teen. Sold dope. Shot at people. Fought. All that. And yep that stupid Jesus and that stupid book changed my life. And now I'm clean have a great job raising a family and helping people around me. And to that you'll probably say I'm weak for messing an imaginary figure to help me change because I'm not strong enough or smart enough to do it my self. So if you are ready to debate in person you better have your A game because I've debated plenty and it always sounds the same.
Merphie: I live in s okc. it would have to be after the 18. There are several parks around. a friend of mine might be able to get us room at uco. I prefer a more conversational format.
Are you saying we need a police presence? I thought this was going to be between two adults. the fact you would say such a thing gives me concern.
Actually the denomination is critical because they aren't compatible. I am not the one with beliefs. atheism means a lack of belief in gods. you have the beliefs which is what this is all about. You even believe you know what im going to say.
There is no historical or any other type of evidence for the bible. Not one thing outside the bible has been found to prove anything.
I wouldn't claim to know anything about your life. I would accept you believe you needed a supernatural thing to help you. ive heard the same claim for Muslims, buddist, and placebo effect. you all can't be right. belief is a very strong motivator. that doesn't prove there is a god. personal experience can't be used as evidence because it is unreliable.
If this is your a game then i hope you have better proof.
Steven: I'm not traveling to debate you. I've already spent more energy on this than I cared to. Especially since you want to set all the rules, dates,times, etc. Here is where I end things. I sincerely hope you discover God's love. And I will be praying that you are blessed with an amazing life!
Merphie: I'm not trying to set any rules. you asked me where and when I wanted to meet. If you want to back out that is fine with me.
I'll think for you.
He eventually went to "lets meet in person". This is usually code for throwing a bunch of stuff out at once and appealing to emotion. I guess it became obvious to Steven I wasn't going to use the same arguments "he's heard before".
As with most conversations with Theist it seems like most of the time is spent with them putting words in the Atheist mouth. Below is a copy and paste from the original email. (Headers and address have been removed) I apologize for the grammer of the text since most of it was typed on my phone.
Merphie: The bible is just as fictional as the paranormal.
Steven: Thanks.
Merphie: Just thought you should know. especially since paranormal and the bible conflict.
Steven: Actually if you studied the Bible you would realize they don't. But your opinion is entitled to you.
Steven: Thank you sir. All I can say is you're allowed to believe what you want. Jesus still loves you no matter how you feel about him. And I understand you will say he is fiction too. I've debated successfully and unsuccessfully with atheiests. All I can say is I am following what I believe.
Merphie: I understand about belief but that isn't what I said. you dont seem to care what is true and what is not.
Steven: You see. That's where our conversation ends. You said the Bible is fiction. I KNOW it to be true. I don't have time or energy to waste arguing with you on an email. If you care what is true. Meet me in person and I will debate you all you want. Other than that I will not respond to your banter and pandering again.
Merphie: Call it what you want because no amount of belief will make it true. you haven't even said which flavor you believe. Catholics, Baptists, Methodist, or calvonist? there's so many to choose from and none of them are compatible. it has nothing to do with what you think you know because every theist uses that statement to prove their belief.
A debate or argument is really no different in person or via email. you can't manipulate emotions to prove your point which is the only reason you would require it to be in person. if you can't prove your belief over email then you can't do it in person. the media doesn't matter because the argument rest on if it's true or false. Give it a simple try. tell me what you believe and your best reason for believing.
I am willing to meet in person at a public location on neutral ground (like a park) and I be allowed to record the argument so I can post it on my blog.
Steven: OK. Great I live in marlow. When would you like to meet and where. And of course I will also be recording the debate as well as bringing witnesses in case you plan violence against Christians. And my denomination is of no importance to the Bible being true. .im not even a member of a church at the moment. And I am a licenced minister. Truth is truth. Period. Your beliefs are set. No amount of discussion is going to change your mind. And honestly that is God's job not mine. All I can do is present literary, archaeological, and historical evidence from outside the Bible to prove the Bible is true. All you will do is point in discrepancies in the text that seem to make it look like the bible contradicts itself. That or point out the foolishness of faith in a book. These are all arguments I have heard before. How about the emotional aspect you spoke of. Oh yes my testimony is emotional. I was addicted to Meth as a teen. Sold dope. Shot at people. Fought. All that. And yep that stupid Jesus and that stupid book changed my life. And now I'm clean have a great job raising a family and helping people around me. And to that you'll probably say I'm weak for messing an imaginary figure to help me change because I'm not strong enough or smart enough to do it my self. So if you are ready to debate in person you better have your A game because I've debated plenty and it always sounds the same.
Merphie: I live in s okc. it would have to be after the 18. There are several parks around. a friend of mine might be able to get us room at uco. I prefer a more conversational format.
Are you saying we need a police presence? I thought this was going to be between two adults. the fact you would say such a thing gives me concern.
Actually the denomination is critical because they aren't compatible. I am not the one with beliefs. atheism means a lack of belief in gods. you have the beliefs which is what this is all about. You even believe you know what im going to say.
There is no historical or any other type of evidence for the bible. Not one thing outside the bible has been found to prove anything.
I wouldn't claim to know anything about your life. I would accept you believe you needed a supernatural thing to help you. ive heard the same claim for Muslims, buddist, and placebo effect. you all can't be right. belief is a very strong motivator. that doesn't prove there is a god. personal experience can't be used as evidence because it is unreliable.
If this is your a game then i hope you have better proof.
Steven: I'm not traveling to debate you. I've already spent more energy on this than I cared to. Especially since you want to set all the rules, dates,times, etc. Here is where I end things. I sincerely hope you discover God's love. And I will be praying that you are blessed with an amazing life!
Merphie: I'm not trying to set any rules. you asked me where and when I wanted to meet. If you want to back out that is fine with me.
I'll think for you.
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